Our Conversation with Victoria Lininger

Gabbers (00:21.246)
Okay, so today we are joined by my friend and colleague Victoria Leininger and she is somebody who has a lot of experience with as a member of the neurodivergent community, as part of a neurodivergent family, and as someone who is not only running a business, a voice acting business, as someone with neurodivergence, but

also has had previous businesses, one of which was as a music therapist, which I am super fascinated by and I think is just amazing and I want to know more about that. But yeah, so she's here today with us to talk all things neurodivergent. So yay.

Rick MacIvor (01:08.926)
Welcome, Victoria.

Victoria Lininger (01:09.058)
Thank you so much. I'm so glad to be here. Thanks for having me.

Gabbers (01:13.676)
Absolutely.

Rick MacIvor (01:13.896)
Absolutely. It's our pleasure. So tell us a little bit about what it means for you, what kind of neurodivergence shows up for you and in your business and all that kind of stuff.

Victoria Lininger (01:25.048)
So I had, was such a great experience getting diagnosed. Actually, only in the last couple years, I was diagnosed with ADHD, which is, that by itself is a fascinating topic that a lot of people are being diagnosed with ADHD in their adulthood, specifically women. Aha, I see Gabby is raising her hand.

Gabbers (01:51.97)
Hi, that's me.

Victoria Lininger (01:55.288)
So that's something that's, you know, a very new topic. My ADHD has already kicked in. What was the original question?

Rick MacIvor (02:09.29)
See? See? This is the thing we do all the time. Gabby and I, because I'm ADHD as well. This is fantastic. This is perfect because it's the same thing that happens. And I'm like, what were we talking about? Because we always go, Yeah. I just wanted to know about how your neurodivergent shows up in your business and all that kind of stuff.

Victoria Lininger (02:14.904)
Wonderful!

Victoria Lininger (02:22.712)
That's the original guy.

Victoria Lininger (02:32.278)
Yeah, well, and I think that that's something that, you know, gosh, where doesn't it? Because when you're neurodivergent, it affects every part of you and every part of your life. And then, you know, you go and have kids and because it's genetic, then you're passing it on. And then you're just surrounded by it even more.

Rick MacIvor (02:36.36)
I think you actually already answered the question.

Rick MacIvor (02:43.103)
Mm-hmm.

Rick MacIvor (02:55.034)
gosh, you're preaching to the choir. Alright.

Victoria Lininger (02:56.952)
Yeah, so I have a couple of kids that are also neurodivergent, so.

Gabbers (03:05.998)
How were you diagnosed? Tell us a little bit about that.

Victoria Lininger (03:09.09)
So it was because of my kids actually. So without going into, you know, really deep into it, but basically what happened is, you know, my husband and I saw signs, symptoms actually really early on for our kiddos. And I would go to pediatricians and be like, hey, something is not right.

and I need this extra support. Well, I was told at the time, although I have learned that this was not true, the original pediatrician told me that I could not get him assessed for dyslexia. What is it? Dyslexia? So was dyslexia and ADHD that I was mostly concerned about. But they said you have to wait until he's in third grade. And I said, OK, yes, I see your face, Rick.

That ended up, and I said, okay, fine, but my kid needs help now. So I ended up getting him assessed, evaluated with an occupational therapist who worked with him undiagnosed. Well, then third grade came along. And so then I insisted getting him dyslexia screening, ended up not being that, but then ADHD.

and then autism. So that combination ended up being the aha moment. And a lot of things that they were ticking off the boxes like, well, you know, he's doing this behavior and this behavior. And I went, wait a minute, those are things I do. Those are things I did as a child. And that's a big thing that's happening right now with people specifically ADHD and autism.

is because it's genetic, families don't see it in their kids because they go, well, that's normal. I did that as a kid. So then their kids aren't being diagnosed. Well, now, thanks to the internet, so many people are becoming more aware of what the criteria are.

Rick MacIvor (05:33.052)
Interesting. And so how does that lead you to seek your own diagnosis?

Gabbers (05:33.09)
Well, we haven't.

Victoria Lininger (05:39.314)
it was when the boxes were being ticked for my kid that I said, I did that as a child. I did that as a, I do that now. so that was really, that was, that was the aha moment to go ahead and get evaluated.

Rick MacIvor (06:01.564)
And at this point in your life, I'm guessing you're out of high school. have, you are, you've worked with whatever neurodivergence you had, right, on your own, and you've done all these things on your own. What led you to saying, I think I want to get diagnosed. What was it that led you to seek that out? Not just the clues, but for yourself.

Victoria Lininger (06:05.585)
yes.

Victoria Lininger (06:13.239)
Yes.

Victoria Lininger (06:26.456)
Well, I think it was because, you know, there's always that moment where you think, okay, well, this is the way I have been functioning. Let's see if we can do better. And the other part was that I was actually diagnosed with anxiety for years and I had received medication for anxiety for years. And what would happen is I would be put on this medication for Zoloft and it would treat me for

anxiety and then they would do a check in say how are you doing and I said well it wasn't working so I stopped taking it and then they would yell at me and be like well you didn't take it long enough it didn't give it you know you didn't give it enough time for it to work so shame on you get back on the Zoloft so then it was kind of a cyclical thing where it's like well

I, you know, it was either, it wasn't working for me. That's the conclusion, it wasn't working for me. But then it really should have been a clue that something else was going on if I just would stop taking it on my own and then forget about it. Kind of like I had some sort of attention deficit that was keeping me from taking the medication.

Gabbers (07:46.286)
Hmm. And do you think that what was being seen as anxiety was really just a brain that was used to having a lot of things going on all the time, different speeds, you know, just not necessarily being overwhelmed, but just maybe I always say it's like picture in picture in picture in picture all the time.

Victoria Lininger (08:17.334)
Yes, it, yes, that actually, I love that you brought that up because that's what ended up happening is that I started taking Amoxetine, which is to help treat ADHD. When I started taking that, suddenly the things that instead of spending time being anxious about it being completed, I just got it done.

Victoria Lininger (08:48.322)
So yeah, was very much a, so this source of anxiety in my life was due to my ADHD. So that ended up being the root cause, like you said. And I'm a gamer, so I often think of things in terms of video games and things like that. I realized that I only had so many slots for items.

like you do in games. And I was realizing that, you know, other people were able to work with so much more than I seem to be limited on that. And so I had to be able to, because for me, I had to have like all of them open at the same time. You know, whereas most people, you know, I had to learn that, no, most people are able to concentrate on one thing at once. And that was a revelation for me.

Rick MacIvor (09:47.22)
Mm-hmm.

Victoria Lininger (09:47.756)
that not everyone has these multiple tabs open in their browser, if you will.

Gabbers (09:55.214)
That's still great though. That's a really good analogy too. Because we talk about that a lot, but having all the tabs open.

Rick MacIvor (09:58.932)
Yeah.

Victoria Lininger (10:02.456)
It's true. And then it's like, okay, there's some sort of music playing over here and you've got this running over here and why is everything, you know, why is my, why is everything crashing? well, it's because I'm expecting this program, this me. Yeah. Yeah. You can't do that.

Rick MacIvor (10:03.762)
Yeah, yeah.

Rick MacIvor (10:22.568)
run all those things at the same time. Yeah, yeah, Yeah, it's tricky. So, go ahead.

Gabbers (10:29.326)
So, well, I was just going to say, now knowing this about yourself, knowing about your kids, so what in the world is it like for you today managing a household with all of these different brains running around and how? I'm so curious as to your process.

Victoria Lininger (10:57.041)
I will say, a lot of it is my husband. God bless him.

So, is the one undiagnosed person in the house. I'm not saying he's not neurodivergent, but he's the only undiagnosed person. But he is certainly not ADHD. The rest of us are ADHD. So a lot of it is

you know, he's very organized and, you know, that's kind of, that's the, that's, we, we joke about, you know, I'm the one who keeps things exciting and he's the one who keeps us grounded. So I'm the one who's like, okay, let's do all of these things and we're going to do this and then the other thing. And he's the one who's like, okay, I see what you're planning. I hear you. Let's come up with a plan to make it happen. So.

You know, and so basically it becomes very much a team effort where, you know, I see what needs to happen and he's the one who gives me the steps to make it happen. He's my personal organizer, which, you know, for the ADHD brain, sometimes he'll, he'll be like, okay, what is it? What is it that you're after? And, and of course then I'm like, my God.

I don't want to have to explain it. I just want to vibe. just want it to, I just want to feel it out. I just want to see what happens. But he's the one who's like, no, no, no, slow down. And he does that for our kids as well. So, you know, I'm there for them to, you know, I can see what's going on in their brains. So then those moments where he's like, what is going on? What were you thinking? And I can be there to be like, they weren't.

Victoria Lininger (13:00.876)
There was no thought process. It just happened.

Rick MacIvor (13:04.426)
It was interesting at that moment. Yeah, yeah, I know that one a lot.

Victoria Lininger (13:06.966)
Yes!

Gabbers (13:10.208)
You

Rick MacIvor (13:12.746)
Fashion time, right? So when you're running your business, right? You had mentioned that you were previously a music therapist and now you're doing voice acting. When you're running your business, you think, tell me the ways that ADHD benefits you for that and what are some of the things that you struggle with a bit?

Victoria Lininger (13:19.447)
Mm-hmm.

Victoria Lininger (13:24.226)
Mm-hmm.

Victoria Lininger (13:37.592)
I would say there has to be, and I know that this is often stated in neurodivergent circles, is this idea that people who have ADHD are very entrepreneurial because they're coming up with ideas all the time. We can't stop. You it's like you're told so often to think outside the box. Well, I don't know where the box is.

Rick MacIvor (14:07.358)
Mm-hmm.

Victoria Lininger (14:07.96)
I've never even met the box. So you're oftentimes, you're always coming up with ideas and going on tangents and just being able to be willing to spitball because that's just where you live, where you are. Now, I would say then on the other side, when it comes to running the business is that you need that moment to go, okay, this is the great idea.

How are we going to make it happen? And I think a lot of it has to do with, you know, I think my ADHD allows me to take those risks because I don't think about the consequences very often. There will be that initial moment of anxiety where it's like, I don't want to get it started. But as soon as it started, there's no stopping it. And there's a lot of stubbornness involved.

When you're running a business being able to see something that okay. Well things aren't going well now But that doesn't mean it won't and not not giving up on it I'd say a lot of that. I think that has a lot to do with My success is my tenacity I am Side note. I am so sorry. That is a noise coming from my house. Good

Rick MacIvor (15:32.586)
What is? Yeah.

Gabbers (15:33.474)
Yeah, didn't even hear it.

Victoria Lininger (15:35.212)
Good. Good, good, good.

Gabbers (15:38.35)
She's got her bat ears on today. Sonar going.

Rick MacIvor (15:39.69)
Right. You're a lot.

Victoria Lininger (15:41.374)
Always. Well, OK, so that's the other part. I didn't talk about this several years. So let's see, I was in college. I was actually diagnosed with auditory processing disorder, which is I you might be wondering, what is that? So it's actually something that's commonly diagnosed with some people with ADHD often have this as well. Auditory processing disorder is

Gabbers (15:57.688)
Mm-hmm.

Victoria Lininger (16:10.986)
It's a disorder that the way I describe it is dyslexia for hearing. but so like I'll hear something and it's all garbled in my brain has to take an extra minute to, process it and understand it. So the other part is that what it means is that I can hear some, I can hear very, very small minute details in sound, which has lent very well for me as a musician.

and an actor and doing voice acting and recordings and things. I can hear those little tiny details most people are gonna miss.

Rick MacIvor (16:49.396)
Do you do the thing where I do this all the time where someone will ask me a question or someone will say something to me and I'll go, what? And then about three seconds later, I'm like, nevermind. You don't need to repeat it. I got it. Right? Is that this? Is that that thing? Is that what that's called?

Victoria Lininger (16:56.085)
Uh-huh.

Victoria Lininger (16:59.778)
Uh-huh.

Victoria Lininger (17:03.128)
I would not be surprised if you have ADHD. There is a very high chance that you also have auditory processing disorder and especially, you you guys do audio and voice acting and things like that. If you find that you hear those sounds that other people are like, what are you talking about? You might.

Gabbers (17:25.772)
Yeah, I'm the lunatic that chases down the buzzing appliance. I'm like, no, it's making noise. I hear it. It's driving me crazy. How can you not hear that? What do you mean you don't hear? Yeah, and again, I will rip it from the cord from the wall because I'm like, it must stop.

Victoria Lininger (17:28.76)
Yes!

Victoria Lininger (17:38.261)
yeah.

Victoria Lininger (17:43.17)
I think it's funny too, my husband, excuse me, so my husband will hear a sound and he'll be like, what's that sound? And I'm like, I heard that hours ago, here's what it is, I already figured it out. Like, don't even worry about it.

Rick MacIvor (18:03.731)
Yeah.

Gabbers (18:06.104)
So where does, okay, so talk to us about the music therapy thing, because since we're on sound, what is it, where does it apply? yeah, I wanna know so many things.

Victoria Lininger (18:09.772)
Yes.

Victoria Lininger (18:17.3)
Okay, so music therapy is the use of music to meet non-music goals. So yes, I love the looks that I'm getting.

Gabbers (18:28.878)
I'm already in love with this, okay.

Victoria Lininger (18:31.44)
So, and that's the difference, you know, oftentimes music therapists are mistaken for music educators for kids with special needs. That's not it at all. And so that's why I say for non-music goals. what? Okay, here's the fascinating thing. Music is the only experience in this life that uses the whole brain. Yeah.

Rick MacIvor (18:57.576)
Yeah, yeah, I've heard that.

Victoria Lininger (18:59.818)
So, and so what will happen is, and this is kind of where the burnout comes in. You know, I worked with, as a music therapist for 10 years, like I mentioned, what will often happen is other therapists or other therapies will try and address issues like speech therapy, physical therapy, know, memory work and things like that for various populations.

And usually what will happen is that when they bump up against a barrier and they go, hmm, these interventions aren't working, then they call in the music therapist. Because it's essentially, it's like, okay, we're, the direction we're going with this is not working anymore. So we need to call in someone who's going to talk to the entire brain. And so that's what you'll often

have happened.

Gabbers (19:56.888)
So it's all in the interest of new neuropathways. I love this.

Victoria Lininger (19:59.542)
Yes. Yes. So that's why oftentimes if you like say if you're doing physical therapy and you're having a hard time, you know, doing repetitive motions with a client and they're going to get bored and they're they're going to get distracted and you're not going to have the consistent gait, for example, of doing those repetitive movements. Well, what about with music?

You can then have a set amount of reps in a song that then you're doing at a consistent pace. And so then you're able to match that gait and it's a whole lot easier to count.

Gabbers (20:42.424)
So this is not just for kids.

Victoria Lininger (20:44.648)
Absolutely not. No, I worked, so I worked in special ed predominantly. I worked with Department of Mental Health and Special School District. So that was where I mainly worked, but I also worked in senior centers. Music therapy is incredible for folks with dementia.

Gabbers (21:09.518)
cognitive impairment, sure.

Victoria Lininger (21:11.19)
Yes, because here's something else that's fascinating about music therapy is the part of your brain. scent is probably the most connected to memory. But second to that is music. And especially during the times of teenage and young adult years, think about the music that means the most to you. It was probably

your jams in high school and college, right?

Rick MacIvor (21:46.119)
yeah.

Victoria Lininger (21:47.18)
That is a very, your brain is able to remember that time and that association and that emotional connection to music, especially during that time. So then you have music therapists come in and play music from those eras. So you do a little bit math. Okay, how old, what was popular at the time when they were?

in high school and young adults. And then suddenly they'll be remembering things from that era. They'll, they'll start remembering themselves. They'll, they'll, it will jog memories. So the whole thing about like, I've seen this meme so many times and it drives me crazy. Cause I'm like, I have the answer, you know, I just walked into the kitchen. can't remember what I was going to do, but yet I can recite all the words to, you know, baby got back or whatever. I'm like,

Look, that's a completely different part of the brain.

Rick MacIvor (22:50.634)
Yeah, yeah. I have good media storage from that era of my life. Movie quotes, music, yeah. I remember all those things and walking around. Where are my glasses in there? yeah, where do put my keys? don't know.

Gabbers (22:51.598)
Ugh.

Victoria Lininger (22:57.352)
Yes! Yup!

Victoria Lininger (23:08.78)
Yep, it's a completely different part of the brain that that storage is in. And, you know, if you're thinking, you know, long term memory versus short term, think of that time, you know, your walk, you're you're trying to find your glasses. That's REM. Or see, I don't know enough about computers. That's that's yeah. RAM. I said, yes.

Rick MacIvor (23:23.56)
Right.

Rick MacIvor (23:28.732)
RAM is the ability to multitask, right? Yeah. Right.

Gabbers (23:34.338)
versus rapid eye movement.

Victoria Lininger (23:35.762)
See, that's I was like as soon as I said REM I'm like, no, that's sleeping.

Rick MacIvor (23:39.486)
Well, could be. I thought you were saying Ram with just a fun accent. It's really what I was going with. That's where you were. Yeah, 100%.

Victoria Lininger (23:44.342)
Yeah, that's what I was doing the whole time.

Gabbers (23:50.158)
So I'm curious now to know, have you made any connections between music therapy and ADHD? Any tricks or things that help in that regard?

Victoria Lininger (24:09.632)
you know, that's hard to tell because, at least for me, because music is such an integral part of my everyday life. And I mean, not to get dramatic, but music is most of my personality. and I would say, I would say for me,

Rick MacIvor (24:31.22)
I get it.

Victoria Lininger (24:39.224)
I need to have, you know, I was joking about being overwhelmed by things and that's the great irony that is an ADHD brain is that I need stimulation, but I also can't have too much. Like it has to be the right amount. So.

Rick MacIvor (24:56.714)
This is probably why there's been a surge, something that worked for me and my kids, of clued me into this. Study beats, right? That background kind of just lo-fi, of simple, not too complicated, no words, God forbid there are words, no words ever, right? But just kind of some, it's not really droning, but it's...

Victoria Lininger (25:00.536)
Uh-huh.

Victoria Lininger (25:09.688)
Study Beats.

Gabbers (25:19.598)
Mm-mm. Mm-mm.

Victoria Lininger (25:19.832)
You

Rick MacIvor (25:25.82)
steady, right? And it helps me get work done, like especially admin. Is this why?

Victoria Lininger (25:31.262)
Yes. I know, and I can't, I can't speak from, you know, the, the, the, the research perspective, just from my own personal perspective, but yes, to help you stay focused in almost to like going back to those slots where it's like, okay, I only have 10 slots, but they need to all be filled. And so making sure that, you know, like you said, like lyrics,

too much, can't, know, the music can't have lyrics. For me, it depends on the music. Okay, are you ready for another tangent? Okay, so Baroque music, in my opinion, is the best background music, but that might also be because I am, again, music nerd. Because see, so at different eras throughout history, so different eras throughout history,

Rick MacIvor (26:08.98)
on.

Victoria Lininger (26:28.83)
music had different roles. And in the Baroque era, a huge part of that was not necessarily to have music for you to like say go to the concert and observe, you know, the musician. It was meant to be background music for rich people. So all of the music we have, not all of it, but a lot of it was, you know, just your

the court musicians playing music as dinner music and things like that. There's a particular type of music called water music. That was the musicians playing their instruments on a boat while, you know, the lords and ladies were eating their grapes kind of thing. That was what the music was intended to be. So,

You know, people talk about like, oh, I like to put on classical music in the background. I'm like, what era classical music?

Victoria Lininger (27:32.898)
So for me, I say it has to be broke. Because if it's romantic, if it's classical, if it's 20th century, too much is going on. Because it was the classical era. So think Beethoven. I like to call him the original rock star. He was the one who was like, no, look at me. Look at me and my crazy hair. Focus on me playing the piano. And then girls would swoon over him, and it was a good time.

Rick MacIvor (28:00.234)
Right good

Gabbers (28:01.664)
It's, it's in, well yeah, and I mean, you're, really talking about the difference between music, commercial music, or what we think of as commercial music. Yeah, that is a completely, you're right, it's a completely different reason for the music to exist. So it's funny because Baroque also is, what a lot of TV shows rely on in movies. It's, it, it really is its background. It's, wow. Hmm.

Victoria Lininger (28:29.1)
Yup.

Gabbers (28:31.528)
neat we're gonna have to try that

Rick MacIvor (28:33.96)
All right, I have one more question. I've lot of questions for you, but one that just popped up for me. Okay, so as a parent, right, I'm a parent as well and all of my kids are neurodivergent and as a neurodivergent parent, parenting neurodivergent kids, right, sorry, I didn't mean to pop the mic there, but sometimes my head just about explodes, right?

Victoria Lininger (28:39.064)
Good!

Mm-hmm.

Rick MacIvor (29:04.23)
I have trouble coaching sometimes, right, in certain situations as a parent. Do you have any like go-to things for you that help keep you grounded or as a team with you and your husband, some go-to things that, strategies that help you with them coping with their ADHD?

Victoria Lininger (29:25.632)
I would say keeping things novel, know, and that's having that structure, but also keeping it novel. So being able to, you know, and again, going back to my music background.

sometimes what I'll often do is, you know, kind of tap into that music therapist mode where, you know, okay, I've given them the instructions to do this thing. And we've done that now several times and they're still getting distracted. So what can we do different? So in those cases, sometimes I'll sing it instead. I'll sing the instructions.

That drives them crazy.

Rick MacIvor (30:16.222)
Wait, you don't have teenagers yet, do you?

Victoria Lininger (30:18.634)
I- one is working on it. They're eleven.

Rick MacIvor (30:20.742)
there you're getting close. Yeah, the music they'll just look at you bad. They'll just be like

Victoria Lininger (30:23.168)
Yes.

Rick MacIvor (30:28.82)
Yeah, just give you that look. Sure. Yeah.

Victoria Lininger (30:29.698)
but it works with preschoolers like a charm. Sometimes what I'll end up doing is using proximity as we used the term in music therapy oftentimes is after you've told them several times, you kind of lean in real close.

Rick MacIvor (30:52.094)
Mm-hmm.

Victoria Lininger (30:52.628)
and using just to make it different. And sometimes it makes it different to turn it into a game, oftentimes. I try and avoid making it a competition, especially if both of them are expected to do the same thing.

Gabbers (31:17.132)
And that's tough because neurodivergent people are very freaking competitive. So, sorry.

Rick MacIvor (31:22.964)
What? What? I don't know what you're talking about!

Victoria Lininger (31:25.158)
What are you talking about?

Rick MacIvor (31:28.862)
We're all winners, except me and more winners than...

Victoria Lininger (31:30.104)
Because I definitely want to don't I try to avoid pitting them against each other, but sometimes I do in an act of desperation.

Rick MacIvor (31:41.182)
Heh.

Right, who can do this the fastest? Or, right, yeah, yeah, I bet you can't, blah, blah. And then there's like, then they go at not just the thing, but at each other, right?

Victoria Lininger (31:46.134)
Yes.

Victoria Lininger (31:54.748)
Mm-hmm. Well, and that was something I had to rethink the strategy. Okay. If you know anyone with autism, you'll appreciate this story. My very literal thinkers love them. So just talking about how to gamify things and rethinking. So my younger kiddo, they were having troubles with refusing to do work at school.

And we were like, this is not him. You know, this was a new, we just started at a new school. So we wondered what is going on? Is it the new setting? Is he still adjusting? Well, we finally got to the bottom of it. We were talking to him, you know, why aren't you completing your work in school? Why are you, you know, bringing it home all the time? And he said, well, it's because the teacher told me if you don't complete it here,

you can take it home to complete it. So I did. He took it, she was meaning that to be a threat, but he took it as, hey, if you don't want to complete it here, you can just take this work to do in the comfort of your own home.

Rick MacIvor (33:16.244)
So why wouldn't you? Right.

Victoria Lininger (33:18.136)
That was my thought. like, well of course you would.

So we had to talk to him about that and we did have to completely rethink, okay, how are we going to do this? Well, now, now we're to the other extreme of if he has homework to bring home, he's in tears. So now that's what we're working on. It's like, look, sometimes you're going to have homework and it's okay. But yeah.

Rick MacIvor (33:40.106)
sure.

Rick MacIvor (33:47.658)
Yeah, teachers gotta be careful. Because us ADHDers, we're wicked smart, right? And so we can see the paradigm or the framework. We can see the framework and the pattern of it. Like, my middle kiddo is like, OK, so the goal of school is to pass, right? Yeah. Awesome. What do you need to pass? And that's the level of work, right? Why would I make it harder for me? Right?

Victoria Lininger (34:06.424)
I'm

Rick MacIvor (34:16.808)
Because that's not the goal. The goal is to pass. And you go, well, yeah, and... So yeah, those conversations are fun. Yeah.

Gabbers (34:24.142)
you

Victoria Lininger (34:29.028)
Uh-huh. It's tough because then, you know, it's like, okay, I want you to care about your grades. I want you to care about completing this. But let's not hyperfixate on that.

Rick MacIvor (34:43.898)
Mm-hmm. Exactly. Oh, I have another quick question here. OK, as someone who, I'm going to get this wrong, but maybe I won't. Audio processing disorders, is what it is? Is that what you call it? OK. One of the things about some of my kids and myself is I'm actually an auditory learner, right? So how do those things mesh?

Victoria Lininger (34:48.427)
Yes.

Victoria Lininger (34:57.174)
Yes. Yes.

Rick MacIvor (35:11.931)
If you have the process, or you do learn a different style like kinesthetic, or do you learn visually, or does it matter?

Victoria Lininger (35:19.498)
you know what, and that's something I have struggled with, like understanding myself because how can I be someone who is an auditory learner, who also has an auditory disorder? How do those two things live together? And I think it's because, you know, it's just the way my brain works, but I think it's because I have had to learn

to focus so much on the auditory section of things. And I would say overall, like, okay, my one true love is musical theater. And I think a lot of that has to do with the fact that it's storytelling, it's music, it's dance, it's a all, everything at once experience. And on a lot of times with

APD, you know, I'll be honest here. I get bored during straight plays. I cannot sit through Shakespeare. I want to like Shakespeare, but I'm like, but you're talking so much and there's nothing else going on. So in that sense, I'm not an auditory learner. can't just sit and listen to someone talk. Ironically, as an audio book narrator, I will record them, but I very rarely listen to them.

Rick MacIvor (36:45.93)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Victoria Lininger (36:47.288)
so it's just a matter of like, yes, I'm an auditory learner, but I'm also not. I need more information. If that makes sense. When I'm listening to someone, it can't just be them reading text or reciting Shakespeare. They, they either have to be a really dynamic actor. It has to be, you know, fantastic.

dynamic performance or you gotta do it with a song and a dance or you're gonna lose me.

Rick MacIvor (37:23.262)
Hmm.

Victoria Lininger (37:24.032)
I need all of the information.

Rick MacIvor (37:26.346)
Sure, yeah.

Victoria Lininger (37:31.149)
Yeah.

Rick MacIvor (37:31.996)
I have, I wrote one other thing down here. You had mentioned something called, I think you called it amoxetine? Ad amoxetine. What is that?

Victoria Lininger (37:40.555)
Adamoxetine.

Victoria Lininger (37:44.744)
so I am not a psychiatrist. I, I, might play one in audio books, but I'm not one.

Rick MacIvor (37:49.063)
Okay, but

Sure.

Victoria Lininger (37:57.73)
So, Adamoxetine is, from my understanding, I do not take methylphenidate, which is what people are typically prescribed for ADHD because of my history with anxiety. So it's a calmer version. So a lot of, you you talk about the SSRIs. I don't know how much, is this common knowledge, what an SSRI is? Okay, cool.

Rick MacIvor (38:25.328)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Victoria Lininger (38:26.968)
So you take the SSRIs and honestly, I get so confused about like, okay, so you're telling me that this helps increase my dopamine reuptake. How is that different from this one that has, that's working on dopamine reuptakes? So I'll tell you, I don't know the difference between each of them. I just know that I was given an anamoxetine as opposed to methylphenidate due to my history of anxiety.

Rick MacIvor (38:56.68)
Interesting. reason I ask is this, because as a parent, again, a parent, is like, it's, you know, 90 % of my day, especially working from home, right? So I have a kiddo that struggles with anxiety and has not been diagnosed as ADHD, but definitely anxiety and struggles still. And I see, I watch her go through things and it's like,

Victoria Lininger (39:07.959)
Yeah.

Rick MacIvor (39:23.882)
I know what that is. That's, you know, I know what's happening here. And so I try to coach from an ADHD or parent from an ADHD perspective. And I'm just wondering, because, you know, Zoloft is the thing that helps, right? But is there more that can be done or something different to try in that situation? Because I see, I see you're struggling with, you know, task initiation and follow through and lots of different things. And so, yeah, I'm just

Victoria Lininger (39:38.413)
okay.

Victoria Lininger (39:49.388)
Yeah.

Rick MacIvor (39:53.802)
curious about it. That's what I'm like, what is that? She's 16.

Victoria Lininger (39:56.504)
How old are they?

Victoria Lininger (40:00.664)
16. Has she been assessed for ADHD?

Rick MacIvor (40:06.602)
Well, initially, yeah, we took her in, we assessed and the person assessing said, no, we've generalized anxiety disorder, right? So was a, that was the focus. It shifted from the ADHD kind of thing. Cause that's why I was like, I see this. I know what that is.

Victoria Lininger (40:08.938)
Okay.

Victoria Lininger (40:15.64)
Hmm.

Victoria Lininger (40:23.638)
And who was that that what was there? Were they a clinical psychologist? Okay.

Rick MacIvor (40:27.722)
Um, yeah, a clinical psychologist. Yeah. Yeah. Not just a therapist, but a clinical psych. So, yeah. And they are, yeah. So I'm like, okay. But, and my, I'm always curious about how you coach, because neurodivergence is such a big umbrella, right? How do you parent and coach kids that have predominantly one thing, but there's so much other, so much else that bleeds into that?

Victoria Lininger (40:47.359)
It is.

Victoria Lininger (40:56.196)
yeah, well and I think that's true just overall, you know, people are just dynamic creatures. Everyone's going to be different and react to things differently. I'm really curious. So your other kiddos that are diagnosed with ADHD, can you tell me more about them?

Rick MacIvor (41:16.468)
Well, yeah, sure. My middle one, he's in college, freshman. And he also, I mean, always, he's the guy that was like, need to, you know, what to get past this class? Okay, great. And I need to go to how many, I need to get out of bed and get out of my dorm room for how many lectures? Right, okay. And so it's that kind of thing right now. And my oldest is just graduating from college and she's...

Victoria Lininger (41:31.576)
Mm-hmm.

Victoria Lininger (41:43.948)
Congratulations.

Rick MacIvor (41:45.848)
thank you well gradually her i didn't do anything she was like yes but she has that kinesthetic thing right where the just just the the the learning style is very hands-on for a physical person and and so watching them grow up and and find their find their passion right what they're really good at

Victoria Lininger (41:52.28)
Mmm.

Victoria Lininger (41:59.48)
Mmm.

Rick MacIvor (42:12.81)
I think ADHD actually can help filter some of those things because you learn quickly what you don't like. and right, it's obvious, right? This sucks and okay, don't do that. Unless you gotta. And so yeah, those are the things that are, you know, I'm always looking so I got one more, she's 16 and needs to, you know, a couple more years of high school.

Victoria Lininger (42:22.68)
Yes.

Victoria Lininger (42:37.836)
And your oldest was also diagnosed with ADHD?

Rick MacIvor (42:40.831)
officially no it's on the autistic autistic spectrum

Victoria Lininger (42:46.264)
Oh, okay. Because I was going to say another part of it is that, and I think this is a reason why a lot of women are being late diagnosed, is that even today, and I'm not saying, I'm not saying that this is what's going on, but I'm just throwing it out there, that physicians, psychiatrists and such are

Rick MacIvor (43:03.966)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Victoria Lininger (43:15.724)
faster to diagnose boys with autism and ADHD than they are with girls. I'm not saying that that's what's happening, but it's maybe something worth looking into getting a second opinion because oftentimes they'll be distracted by, you know, it's a lot easier to check the boxes, you know, things like

Boys have more of a tendency, and this is a tangent. I hope you don't mind if I go on this. Especially with autism and a reason why a lot of women in particular are being diagnosed with things like autism in adulthood when they weren't as kids is that the professionals would look at little boys who are interested in things like trains and they line up and

Rick MacIvor (43:44.712)
No, no, no, go for it.

Victoria Lininger (44:09.42)
You know, they're gonna be fascinated by, you know, I have a brother with autism. He was really fascinated with stoplights. Okay, we can all agree that's a strange hyperfixation. But what if you have a little girl whose hyperfixation is makeup, clothes, people, social situations? That's gonna be a whole lot harder for a professional to be able to go.

Aha, that does check that box.

Rick MacIvor (44:40.394)
So here's another interesting aspect to this. And this will be edited out, actually, right now. So my oldest and my youngest are both trans, trans girls. And so they were in there until puberty and just after identified differently. And so that's an interesting side note for that.

Victoria Lininger (44:45.272)
Sure.

Victoria Lininger (44:49.48)
okay.

Gabbers (45:01.038)
But I'm gonna throw this in there too. Women, girls, are more likely to be diagnosed with anxiety disorders almost immediately. Anything. Like generalized anxiety disorder, generalized anxiety disorder. And I still think that some of that stems from some really, really old...

Rick MacIvor (45:03.912)
Yeah.

Victoria Lininger (45:12.844)
Yep. Yes.

Gabbers (45:27.224)
therapeutic and psychiatric ideas about women. And it's like, right, when I feel like when women go to a clinician often, and they

Victoria Lininger (45:31.724)
Mm-hmm.

Gabbers (45:42.414)
present is let's say high strung, right, or very animated, it's automatically, oh, this person is anxious. But that's not necessarily true. And so that's, yeah, I think there's a bias there that we're still dealing with.

Victoria Lininger (45:44.759)
Mm-hmm.

Victoria Lininger (46:02.776)
Absolutely. Bipolar disorder is another one. Bipolar and ADHD have a lot of similar traits. So I actually, when I went in for my ADHD diagnosis, she even prefaced it with, look, I don't think it's this, but can you fill this out anyway? And she had me do a checklist for bipolar. And when she looked over it, she goes,

Gabbers (46:07.086)
you

Rick MacIvor (46:07.402)
you

Victoria Lininger (46:32.503)
Yeah, the only signs of bipolar you have are ones that are also ADHD. So she's like, okay, we're taking that off the table. oftentimes, you know, they call it bipolar now, but back in the day, they would call it hysteria.

Rick MacIvor (46:49.609)
Yeah.

Gabbers (46:50.446)
It- everyone I know, and this- my husband was included in this, everyone I know that has bipolar was diagnosed incorrectly as having ADHD as children. Yep. Yep. Because the- because the earliest signs, the early- you know, for a child, that's how it presents. But what they didn't realize is that they were potentially dealing with a manic episode. At a very early age, yeah. Yep. Yeah.

Victoria Lininger (47:17.538)
That makes sense.

Gabbers (47:20.406)
It's wild. It's still, I mean, look, first, as as we, there's still like two uncharted territories for humanity, right? The bottom of the ocean and our brain.

Rick MacIvor (47:32.306)
shit.

Victoria Lininger (47:34.232)
That's the

Gabbers (47:34.902)
I don't... I don't get it, but that... yeah.

Victoria Lininger (47:38.092)
Well, and that's something that, you know, when I was working as a music therapist, my husband works with computers. He does software engineer and we would joke, you know, we, on the surface, we look very different. We look like very different people. And so very often people are like, how, how does this work? And I will tell you it's because when you get down to the nitty gritty, we're actually really similar because, you know,

my clients are very similar to his clients. The difference is he gets to open up the brains of his and actually poke around and see what's happening. It's like, where is this being wired incorrectly? I did not get that luxury. So that was something that it's funny you bring that up because I think, and there was a time in our history,

Psychology has a very dark history and we learned so much about the brain through very, very unethical studies.

Gabbers (48:36.992)
Mm, for sure.

Gabbers (48:45.56)
yeah. for sure. For sure. There's some scary, scary history there. But I do think, Rick, do think Victoria gets to join the Electric Meatball Club now. She's part of the, yeah, it's the Electric Meatball Club. That's what we call it. It's our brain nickname. yeah. We're gonna make merch at some point.

Victoria Lininger (48:51.064)
Mm-hmm.

Rick MacIvor (48:57.982)
Ooh, that's perfect. Ooh, I like it. Yeah. Yeah. The electric beat.

Victoria Lininger (48:58.615)
Huh.

oooo

excellent.

Sweet.

Rick MacIvor (49:10.932)
love it. Yes we are. Did we get per- did she- did your daughter- it's like okay you can use that? Can we- can we pay her?

Gabbers (49:16.632)
She's really accepted of it. She's like, you're going with this full force, you? I'm like, yeah. She's like, all right, that's fine.

Rick MacIvor (49:21.918)
Yeah.

Victoria Lininger (49:22.072)
Did she come up with that?

Rick MacIvor (49:24.59)
yeah.

Gabbers (49:25.1)
I don't know if she came up with it or if it was something she saw, but it has stuck, man. It has become a thing. And every time people hear me say it, it's the same reaction. People are like, my God, the electric meatball. It's perfect.

Rick MacIvor (49:35.69)
Yeah, it's come, it's kind of become a shorthand in my house. I'm like, my meatball is short circuiting. And most of the time, everybody knows what I mean, but there are a few times that people are over and I'm like, I say that and I go like, I'm sorry.

Victoria Lininger (49:50.744)
Listen, I'm not sure I want to know about this. You need to tell your doctor. Tell your doctor. Talk to your doctor about your electric meatball.

Rick MacIvor (49:55.398)
Right. Right. I've got to be careful.

Victoria, thank you so much for joining us today. This has been a fantastic conversation. Would you come on again, too, if we want to have you in again? That'd be great.

Victoria Lininger (50:19.16)
I love that. No, this was a good time. You'll have to... Yeah, keep me in the loop.

Rick MacIvor (50:26.447)
Mm-hmm, for sure. Awesome.

Gabbers (50:28.558)
Absolutely. I've been wanting to have you with us for a while. So this is great. Thank you so much.

Rick MacIvor (50:33.898)
It, here I'm gonna hit the button here, hold on a second. What's funny is that.